30 replies to this topic

[VolksNav]

So what exactly is the problem you're trying to solve? Is it navigation? Is it postal codes? I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but I still have no clue. What if I would propose your system to Apeldoorn and they'd ask me to explain it?

You mention "25 problems" that you're solving. Which are those?

PS. we do have terrible issues with the postal services over here, but I doubt they're related to addresses/postal codes, because it used to work just fine... It's a result of management running the organisation into the ground, replacing experienced people with cheaper rookies...

PPS. I'm going out on a limb here and assume your native language is German. Would you mind posting a short overview of your idea here in German?

Hi, Hans,

my native language is Portuguese and a "short" German description can be found on www.volksnav.de/Aktuell. But I doubt that the language will change the fact that any innovation requires a re-thinking. Possibly the new horizon only can be seen ignoring the actual classification "post codes, maps, addresses, coordinates, cartesian grids". The goal is a self-guidance through indoor/urban/global position codes, with no devices, almost no signage and with easy-to-read maps.

You praise the actual system and at the same time confirm one weak point: the addressing system is too complicated for "cheap rookers". But the market want cheap deliveries, so the gap is a system which can even be understood by illiterates. I've tested my system with street children in Rio with hidden coins, the result was fantastic. They can read a clock and know that radius 8 is "outsider" than r5. So I'm proposing my system on many slums www.volksnav.de/Favela.

Has anyone ever asked a woman (50% of the population) what she thinks about the actual system? In simple words: the gap is/are simple answers to the simple questions "where?" and "whereto? (twice "where" required)".

The Munich Orientation Convention covers such gaps and the shorter the description, the harder will be to detect the 25 solutions. The most solutions are developed for authorities and emergency services: an ambulance driver has other problems than a cartographer, so I'm afraid this forum will ask 25 times "where is the problem?". Even a cat can be a problem - or a solution - depending on if you're a man or a mouse :-). So any new system can look good or bad depending on if someone wants to make a business with it or not.

I'm sure that I'll find within this forum much more than one cartographer who will discuss the innovation with customers, friends, family etc. - getting a real confirmation about the existence of a problem - and will give the new business a chance.

[antoniolocandro]

Tried to keep open minded and read your webpage, my only two thoughts are

1. Really they listened to you on those conferences? No wonder they come out with all this weird resolutions at the UN
2. Seriously I hope your idea never gets out, it's just not worth it

No hard feelings please

Hi everybody,

looking for a method to reform the house numbering in Japan, I've accidentally developed an orientation standard which would be proper to reform all orientation tools including post codes and room numbers.

The system is based on the division of the horizon into 12 directions, a method used by soldiers, boy scouts, blind people, pilots etc. for more than 100 years. Why do cartographers insist on 360 directions and square grids or none www.volksnav.com/YouAreHere?

In my opinion, a clock based grid acc. to www.volksnav.de/MagicGrid forces the reform of all maps in favor of the reader, consequently opening a lot of work for cartographers.

So I'd suggest than anyone thinks about the question

- why not be a Cartist? www.volksnav.de/theCartist

or at least calls the attention of the customer about the listed benefits. In case the answer is “let’s give the idea a chance”, please contact

Henrique Koehler
Munich Orientation Convention
www.volksnav.de/actual
volksnav@volksnav.de

[David Medeiros]

I'm reminded here of a guy who repeatedly tried to get the CSAA cartographic department to adopt a new system of indexing that he "invented" and patented... micro indexing. Instead of a regular index grid of one series of numbers and letters his system further broke down each grid into quarters or 10ths or something (I forget). So a certain location from the index wouldn't just be in say grid B-9, it would be B-9 section 4 or something. He assured us of how revolutionary his method was and how much time it would save map readers from having to scan the 2" square grid for their road. Now they could scan the 2" grid for their sub grid then look for their road! It was a solution in search of a problem that didn't exist but he never took no for an answer. Every couple of years he would reappear, usually having gone over our heads and contacted the current president who then passed it down to us where we would again politely tell him, thanks but no thanks.

Even if it were a good idea, the over the top, vaguely confrontational language of this kind of pitch is always a major turn off and contrary to the folksy wisdom that perseverance wins in the end, I think it only serves to build resistance to your ideas.

[frax]

Even if it were a good idea, the over the top, vaguely confrontational language of this kind of pitch is always a major turn off and contrary to the folksy wisdom that perseverance wins in the end, I think it only serves to build resistance to your ideas.

+1

[VolksNav]

Hi Antonio,

I see me as a defender of the customer, not of the aviation branch. At the other side: why do pilots in emergency cases divide the horizon into 12 directions (danger from your 2 o'clock)? Because it's more natural for those who can read a clock.

In year 2000, a pilot in Taiwan confused the 5R and 5L airstrips: 80 passenger died. With imaginary clocks it's possible to reduce right/left AND east/west confusions.

For your safety, I've also developed a Collision Avoidance Esperanto www.volksnav.de/TCAS

Some experts here adore Cartesian systems with miles. Are such systems also convenient for Tegucigalpa?
With www.volksnav.de/Tegucigalpa it would also be possible to address immediatly any slum barrack www.volksnav.de/houseNumber. I want to propose this to the authorities. Could you please give me a tip?

I continue looking for cartographers who are aware about the actual question: "since Google and OSM: WHO STILL NEEDS A CARTOGRAPHER?". The world needs Cartists.

Henrique

[Michael Schmeling]

Henrique,

I see that you offer licenses for using your system. What is the cost of such a license?

[VolksNav]

Hi Michael,



finally I've found the first cartographer who seems to need a business and makes questions instead of trying to impede progress with conservative arguments or with no arguments at all.

If a cartographer doesn't want exclusivity, the fee is EUR 1,- flat plus 20% participation on sublicenses. If exclusivity is wanted, for example for Kassel www.volksnav.de/KasselMapplet (pole provisory), this must be negotiated case-by-case.

So possibly Kassel will be world's first city with natural orientation, maybe starting with the famous Documenta www.documenta.de


Henrique

[Michael Schmeling]

So possibly Kassel will be world's first city with natural orientation, maybe starting with the famous Documenta www.documenta.de

Thanks for the info - it was mainly out of interest about your business model.

Unfortunately I don't work for the city of Kassel or the documenta, so I have nothing to say there.

If you like you can contact the Amt für Geoinformation - Kassel yourself.

(My personal opinion: your chances are very slim, but you can always try...)

[VolksNav]

I'm reminded here of a guy who repeatedly tried to get the CSAA cartographic department to adopt a new system of indexing that he "invented" and patented... micro indexing. Instead of a regular index grid of one series of numbers and letters his system further broke down each grid into quarters or 10ths or something (I forget). So a certain location from the index wouldn't just be in say grid B-9, it would be B-9 section 4 or something. He assured us of how revolutionary his method was and how much time it would save map readers from having to scan the 2" square grid for their road. Now they could scan the 2" grid for their sub grid then look for their road! It was a solution in search of a problem that didn't exist but he never took no for an answer. Every couple of years he would reappear, usually having gone over our heads and contacted the current president who then passed it down to us where we would again politely tell him, thanks but no thanks.

Even if it were a good idea, the over the top, vaguely confrontational language of this kind of pitch is always a major turn off and contrary to the folksy wisdom that perseverance wins in the end, I think it only serves to build resistance to your ideas.

Hello David,

I agree with you that 99 ideas have been poor, e. g. www.nacgeo.com, but this doesn't demonstrate that the 100th idea must be bad. All ideas before had a fundamental error: they base on global squared or BI-polar systems. This is really not customer friendly.

I have no patent and my system is a MONOpolar and base on the division of horizon into 12 directions, used by soldiers, boy scouts, blind people, pilots etc. for more than 100 years. Aren't CSAA drivers able to to use this tool? What do your members think about? I'd suggest, let's ask them instead of taking decisions based on assumptions.

With the code in www.volksnav.de/CSAAsanFrancisco anyone in the world can immediately understand that the position of CSAA must be 38 blocks from Sutro tower in direction 1 "hour", respectively 13 block "later" than this direction. Also Cartesian should be satisfied.

I'm sure that perseverence will win:

M. Ghandi:
- first they ignore you,
- then they laught at you,
- then they fight you,
- then you win.

Which phase will CSAA wait for :-) ?

Henrique

[VolksNav]

how can a stranger know where is Chicago SE without knowing that the crossing State/Madison is the pole of this polar system?

The same way they know the pole of your system: by learning it or looking at the addresses around them. The traveler entering the metro station signposted as Garfield (5500S-200E) immediately knows where he is in relationship to the point of origin, and which direction to travel to reach 1313 E. 60th: 9 blocks east and 5 blocks south. He knows that a restaurant listed in his guidebook as 3200N-2800W is 10 miles north and 4 miles west of his position. A glance at the metro map in the station will tell him that the closest station to the restaurant is the one at 3200N-3400W, Belmont (Blue).

Well, Dennis, let's resume our common opinions:

1 - also a cartesian system should have no limits, that means, must have a start point, respectively a pole. The cities of Mannheim, Brasilia etc. have tried to grow without street names through a pure cartesian grid. That means: the world ends left of "A" and above of 1. Consequently, outside of the grid, street names must be defined continuously there.

2 - LOGICAL position codes for targets, stop points, bridges, crossings etc. are a most useful tool. Which cities in the US and the world offer such codes? Post codes in Germany, UK, France etc. aren't proper for that, do you agree with?

Acc. to www.ManausOnline.com (click Turismo / Pontos turisticos), touristic attractions in Manaus are addressed acc. to the Munich Orientation Convention. If you plan to visit Manaus, you can TODAY imagine what-is-where and directions just analysing the codes like you today HAVE TO compare house numbers for left-right decisions.

Concerning Chicago, I've found that "your" grid is very asymetric, the north/south logic changes at the Austin blvd. and other small discrepancies. I'd say, the most orientation problems today arise within the periphery. The Magic Grid for Chicago www.volksnav.de/ChicagoMapplet has no limitations, so the market - including the consumer - could decide where the next clock should beginn.

You're showing a map of Freiburg. Would you propose a Chicago system there or www.volksnav.de/FreiburgMapplet?

So please give the idea a chance, no matter where

Henrique

[Hans van der Maarel]

I'm reminded here of a guy who repeatedly tried to get the CSAA cartographic department to adopt a new system of indexing that he "invented" and patented... micro indexing. Instead of a regular index grid of one series of numbers and letters his system further broke down each grid into quarters or 10ths or something (I forget). So a certain location from the index wouldn't just be in say grid B-9, it would be B-9 section 4 or something. He assured us of how revolutionary his method was and how much time it would save map readers from having to scan the 2" square grid for their road. Now they could scan the 2" grid for their sub grid then look for their road!

I've actually seen that being used on road/street maps. Must be a sample of that somewhere in my map collection (which also goes by the name of "the pile", so it may not be easy to retrieve it...)

[David Medeiros]

I'm reminded here of a guy who repeatedly tried to get the CSAA cartographic department to adopt a new system of indexing that he "invented" and patented... micro indexing. Instead of a regular index grid of one series of numbers and letters his system further broke down each grid into quarters or 10ths or something (I forget). So a certain location from the index wouldn't just be in say grid B-9, it would be B-9 section 4 or something. He assured us of how revolutionary his method was and how much time it would save map readers from having to scan the 2" square grid for their road. Now they could scan the 2" grid for their sub grid then look for their road!

I've actually seen that being used on road/street maps. Must be a sample of that somewhere in my map collection (which also goes by the name of "the pile", so it may not be easy to retrieve it...)

I have too, but not sure where. I do recall upon seeing it in use that it looked about as unnecessary as we determined it to be all those years before. In essence its the equivalent of simply shrinking your index grid but with the micro-index you have a longer coordinate to enter into the map index and to remember when turning the map over to search the gird on the map.

[Charles Syrett]

I have too, but not sure where. I do recall upon seeing it in use that it looked about as unnecessary as we determined it to be all those years before. In essence its the equivalent of simply shrinking your index grid but with the micro-index you have a longer coordinate to enter into the map index and to remember when turning the map over to search the gird on the map.

For your amusement, I've attached a scan of a system used in the 60s in Toronto – "Metro Square". You can see the explanation of how it works. In the street index, some streets are listed with the extent of the street within the square, e.g. "H.14 C-H". At the time, I was a kid map geek, and I loved it! But it didn't last. Oh – and note the Leroy lettering. The entire map was lettered this way!

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com

Attached Files

•  MetroSquare.jpg   54.59K   35 downloads

[VolksNav]

Hi Charles,

thank you for the confirmation that square grids are unadequate. But as everybody can see on mapgraphics.com, your strategy is "no grid" www.volksnav.de/YouAreHere . Acc. to www.volksnav.de/ThunderBay your before/after comparison could be much smarter:

[/quote]

Who is afraid of a simple grid?
Sleeping giant, will you propose this system to the authorities and your customers or should I do that :-)?

Henrique

Attached Files

•  ThunderBay.png   165.74K   34 downloads

[Dennis McClendon]

Please explain how your system would be used to navigate from one place to another. How would you give directions from BMW-Museum to the University of Munich?