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Help with a WWII map co-ordinates

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#1
sapphotwins

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Hi,
I have been researching a WWII casualty who died in the Rhineland battles.In his service file co-ordinates for his temporary grave is given.I have the proper map but not the knowledge to figure it out.I wanted to know if anyone out there could help me out.Its important as it is for the Fallens brother who is now in his 70's. I would be greatful. I have attached the map and this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany,Ref. SheThank youet 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.

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#2
redbeard

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That looks like a MGRS coordinates - if you google for a converter or a way to do the conversion yourself you should be able to find it. If you are trying to get exactly where it is, you will need to consider projection.

Hi,
I have been researching a WWII casualty who died in the Rhineland battles.In his service file co-ordinates for his temporary grave is given.I have the proper map but not the knowledge to figure it out.I wanted to know if anyone out there could help me out.Its important as it is for the Fallens brother who is now in his 70's. I would be greatful. I have attached the map and this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany,Ref. SheThank youet 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.



#3
SaultDon

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I have the proper map but not the knowledge to figure it out.I wanted to know if anyone out there could help me out. I have attached the map and this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany, Ref. She Thank you et 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.



I have looked at your map attached and the information you have provided:
GSGS 4414 > seen on bottom left footnote
4303 > on top right of map, as well as in INDEX, it states the map as being 4304, not 4303
Xanten > seen at top centre of map title
034404 > can't find this... is it a military grid reference or lost on map due to resampling?

Example: I think NATO uses a military grid to reference locations on the earth using a derivative of UTM coordinates.
Their UTM locations, consists of a number that is however many digits long followed by some grid information; FQ932A-12345678 for example.
Where 1234 represents the Easting, and 5678 would be the northing and FQ932A would refer to some kmxkm grid (I made up the name in this case).

on this map, 034 easting, 404 northing based on the grid along edge of map


None of that information is helpful though if it is not a military grid reference. I don't work often enough with these locations or systems to really speak accurately about them. Just my $0.02

#4
Michael Schmeling

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Hi,
I have been researching a WWII casualty who died in the Rhineland battles.In his service file co-ordinates for his temporary grave is given.I have the proper map but not the knowledge to figure it out.I wanted to know if anyone out there could help me out.Its important as it is for the Fallens brother who is now in his 70's. I would be greatful. I have attached the map and this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany,Ref. SheThank youet 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.


Hm, I am only doing a bit of guesswork here, but GSGS 4414 seems just to refer to 'Geographical Section, General Staff, No. 4414' in the lower left corner of the map, probably the unit which published the map. '4303 1/25000' seems to be the map sheet number and map scale, but the map you are showing has number 4304. Is the number 4303 correct? The city of Xanten is in the middle right of the map, so this looks correct. '034404' probably refers to the grid cell numbers at the side, but I can't figure out how. Was the number written exactly this way?
It does not look like an MGRS coordinate to me. Was MGRS actually in use during WW2? The label in the upper right says something about a Lambert projection.

EDIT: Oh, I see someone beat me to it :P
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#5
redbeard

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I'll agree with what was posted here. I saw the group of letters and numbers and a military reference, so it made sense to me. I was on my iPod so I couldnt look at the map. But after looking at the map, I think they're right. The GSGS I would take to be the publisher, the number in the top right is the sheet number. So either they told you the wrong sheet number, or they gave you the wrong sheet number. Hopefully both sources are not wrong.

If you have the coordinates, you might be able to determine the correct sheet. It looks like you just provided the sheet info.

So what format are the coords in?

Hi,
I have been researching a WWII casualty who died in the Rhineland battles.In his service file co-ordinates for his temporary grave is given.I have the proper map but not the knowledge to figure it out.I wanted to know if anyone out there could help me out.Its important as it is for the Fallens brother who is now in his 70's. I would be greatful. I have attached the map and this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany,Ref. SheThank youet 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.


Hm, I am only doing a bit of guesswork here, but GSGS 4414 seems just to refer to 'Geographical Section, General Staff, No. 4414' in the lower left corner of the map, probably the unit which published the map. '4303 1/25000' seems to be the map sheet number and map scale, but the map you are showing has number 4304. Is the number 4303 correct? The city of Xanten is in the middle right of the map, so this looks correct. '034404' probably refers to the grid cell numbers at the side, but I can't figure out how. Was the number written exactly this way?
It does not look like an MGRS coordinate to me. Was MGRS actually in use during WW2? The label in the upper right says something about a Lambert projection.

EDIT: Oh, I see someone beat me to it :P



#6
SaultDon

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this is the info they gave me.GSGS 4414 germany,Ref. Sheet 4303 1/25,000 xanten 034404.


In regards to that number 034404, it may not be on this map because you need to confirm what sheet number you actually need, 4303, or 4304. This map shows 4304.

I am beginning to think that number is a reference to a specific grid and would lead you to a location.
I found these two other interesting articles.
Attached File  Does_anyone_know_what_this_means_.pdf   311.09KB   25 downloads this is from a forum with a similar question http://www.ww2f.com/...what-means.html which Google returns as having some malware, so I saved as a PDF to safely view here
Attached File  N_740FAB_AAR.doc   35.5KB   37 downloads www.7tharmddiv.org/docrep/N-740FAB-AAR.doc there is a similar coordinate given on the last page, "278490", but again, what do these mean...

#7
redbeard

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http://www.earthpoint.us/Convert.aspx has a converter.

if I plug in 32ULC2740034404 in the second field, it sorta lands in that area. I I just looked at the coords of the map and looked at the MGRS output, and tried changing the last 6 with what you had. Not really sure if that is what they wanted you do to.

But not enough info for me to really get anywhere.

#8
Hans van der Maarel

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Wouldn't the 034404 refer to the coordinate indexes along the edge? 034 East by 404 North (multiply the values along the edge by 10)? That would put the location on the left hand side of the map, near Tuschen Wald.
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#9
SaultDon

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http://www.earthpoint.us/Convert.aspx has a converter.

if I plug in 32ULC2740034404 in the second field, it sorta lands in that area. I I just looked at the coords of the map and looked at the MGRS output, and tried changing the last 6 with what you had. Not really sure if that is what they wanted you do to.

But not enough info for me to really get anywhere.


I found this page that has a MGRS Conversion Utility and also a link to view some MSGS lines in Google Earth

I placed your image into google earth as an overlay:
Attached File  Xanten_Overlay.jpg   345.06KB   18 downloads

Then using the MSGS converter:
Attached File  MGRS_Converter_ex.JPG   28.99KB   11 downloads
(set to WGS84, as I couldn't get anything to recognize inputs when switched to Plessis 1817)

I get the following plots in google earth (red pushpins):
Attached File  Xanten_Locations.jpg   297.57KB   20 downloads


I also thought it was the Index along the edge, because those coordinates do fit on this map, but the only thing that stops me from using those is the fact that this may be the wrong map sheet, and they don't overlap so if it is suppose to be on map 4303 and not 4304 as shown here.

Again, none of those plotted points would even fall within either map 4303 or 4304, I think it has to do with the Ellipsoid being used for the location 034404, which I think could be Plessis 1817, like on the map?

#10
SaultDon

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cont'd from last post:

Here are the locations that were clustered in the top left of the google image, see how close the points from the converter and the website converter overlay...

Attached File  Location_Cluster.jpg   364.01KB   22 downloads




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