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OSM Maps, some issues.

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#1
ProMapper

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I was wondering are some of us utilizing OSM data to make maps. Now the question comes regarding the data content on OSM. Is it as good or some may say as bad as Google maps? Now I had some time at my hand so I tried getting the OSM data into a map using Illustrator and also registered Google map with it.

Now the result is not bad at all, if you say Google map is correct then OSM sits pretty okay on it and if you say, well all the Google nay-sayers, that OSM data is as such good, then Google sits pretty on it.

Now with image any ai file really bloats, so I zipped it but even that size is more than one mb, the permitted size to attach. So I used winrar and got a smaller than one mb file, but rar files are not permitted to be attached. Anyway I have uploaded the zip and rar files on my website and you can download it from http://www.mapsandlo...zevenhuizen.zip or http://www.mapsandlo...zevenhuizen.rar

Now a few questions, the OSM website allows you to use their data for even comercial purpose if you give them credit, so no issues. But Google does not permit use of their data, but here we are just verifying the OSM with Google, or may be at the most adding a few tid bits of information from Google maps. It should not be too worrysome to Google. The more worrysome part to Google should be OSM, which is so really good, and their supremacy is getting challenged. Kudos to OSM guys, great job.

Just a note this small place Zevenhuizen is somewhere in Netherlands.

Anu
http://www.mapsandlocations.com

#2
James Hines

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What data are you using? XML? or SVG? If uou are using SVG you should try to download the XML data into a the most modern QGis software package (open source). After exporting each file to shapefile format you should be able to use your GIS skills from there using ArcMap. BTW do you have MAPublisher?

"There is much beauty that we fail to see through our own eyes teeming with life forms that give us that perception of our reality.  Leaves on the trees blowing gently in the wind, or scarily, the waves pounding through high surf, or lightly on a warm summer’s day; that opportunity to sit or swim in the water on a white beach.   That comfort to shout, “The universal conscious do you hear me?  I am alive, guide me dear logos towards the path of rightnesses.”  Earned what has been kept, no longer to be absorbed into a life filled with cold damn winds and  that stubborn fog clouding  my vision with nothing but darkness."


#3
Charles Syrett

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I use OSM frequently, usually by downloading from CloudMade and then loading into Global Mapper. There we project it and do selective shapefile exports trimmed to the window view. Then it's over to the Mac, using our trusty rusty MAPublisher for FreeHand. This works well for most areas, but for some areas (e.g., right now, where we've got a project in Yellowknife NWT, Canada), the data is far from complete. Sometimes Google is better, sometimes OSM is better, but you always have to research, and you always have to update, and you always have to edit (= the fun of mapmaking). B)

#4
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What data are you using? XML? or SVG? If uou are using SVG you should try to download the XML data into a the most modern QGis software package (open source). After exporting each file to shapefile format you should be able to use your GIS skills from there using ArcMap. BTW do you have MAPublisher?

I download XML data, then use Global Mapper as Charles pointed out to export it as shp file. However now Global Mapper has a PDF utility, which can easily convert the data to a PDF format and then one can easily manipulate it in Illustrator. The beauty is that if you have imagery in Global Mapper they also go along with it nicely georefrenced. Now in the samples that I have given, you can view the Google Map nicely matched with the vector ai data. This sure is a great help in digitising some missing roads, or POIs. But again the nagging question, Google copyright?????

#5
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I use OSM frequently, usually by downloading from CloudMade and then loading into Global Mapper. There we project it and do selective shapefile exports trimmed to the window view. Then it's over to the Mac, using our trusty rusty MAPublisher for FreeHand. This works well for most areas, but for some areas (e.g., right now, where we've got a project in Yellowknife NWT, Canada), the data is far from complete. Sometimes Google is better, sometimes OSM is better, but you always have to research, and you always have to update, and you always have to edit (= the fun of mapmaking). B)

You are very right, sometimes Google is better, sometimes OSM. But OSM says, you can always use their data but Google is a strict no, what to do.

Now for your Yellowknofe project, will you digitise the whole lot from Google Map?

Just for curiosity sake, which area in Yellowknife are you interested? If you can give me the bounding corners of the AOI, may be I can find some data for you.

Anu
http://www.mapsandlocations.com

#6
Hans van der Maarel

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My biggest gripe about OSM data is that you don't know how reliable it is, ergo it's not reliable.

My 2nd biggest gripe, and rising fast, is the problem that there doesn't seem to be any consistent data model, or if there is, nobody is actually using or enforcing it. Just looking at data for The Netherlands I've come across of issues. E.g. there's about 70 streets in the country classified as "residental". One as "zandpad" (dirt road, but if you don't know Dutch you'd never find out, so that's not making it very "open"). At least one is called "geen naam" (Dutch for "no name", once again, if you don't know Dutch you'll never find out). Some road classifications seem to be limited to certain geographic areas. Many train stations seem to be entered two or three times (with inconsistent names...)

As some of you know, I've been using OSM data for a couple of projects recently, but I'm not totally convinced it's the way to go.

Oh, and you have to go through a lot of trouble to get data for larger areas. Cloudmade and Geofabrik are very kind to offer nationwide downloads, but they don't offer the full data model (or even the same data model). I can't make anything that looks like the OSM renders using only Cloudmade or Geofabrik downloaded data. So I set up my own FME process that can read big chuncks of data by cutting them up into smaller pieces and then sticking them back together again.
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#7
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I can't make anything that looks like the OSM renders using only Cloudmade or Geofabrik downloaded data. So I set up my own FME process that can read big chuncks of data by cutting them up into smaller pieces and then sticking them back together again.


I wondered about that too, and even had to abandon one project idea. Thanks for clearing that up, I really wondered why the Cloudmade/Geofabrik data looked so different.

#8
James Hines

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Another problem in many geographic area's that are mapped by Google maps such as the Annapolis Valley are left out from OSM. Fortunately there are alternative sources but for a cartographer with no knowledge of this they may try OSM & find disappointment as the only available data contains a few location points & a few roads. This is not good enough, & we are talking about locations in a first world country.

Never the less the size of the data is also very restricted & can cause you to spend too much time downloading vector files. So is it even worth the hassle or are you better off digitizing? That depends on the accuracy of the data & your patience. Because if you are going to download XML data from OSM then you better know how to use GIS because I found that in order to use the data properly attributes had to be extracted via SQL using a SELECT & LIKE clause on features such as all the water bodies.

"There is much beauty that we fail to see through our own eyes teeming with life forms that give us that perception of our reality.  Leaves on the trees blowing gently in the wind, or scarily, the waves pounding through high surf, or lightly on a warm summer’s day; that opportunity to sit or swim in the water on a white beach.   That comfort to shout, “The universal conscious do you hear me?  I am alive, guide me dear logos towards the path of rightnesses.”  Earned what has been kept, no longer to be absorbed into a life filled with cold damn winds and  that stubborn fog clouding  my vision with nothing but darkness."


#9
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My biggest gripe about OSM data is that you don't know how reliable it is, ergo it's not reliable.

My 2nd biggest gripe, and rising fast, is the problem that there doesn't seem to be any consistent data model


You are so very right here. The data model is different for different regions, and probably depends on the volunteer who has done the job in the area. I think I must do up some data for them to understand them better. But all said and done, still for many areas, you can get a semblance of map within no time, it may not be correct but it is a map still.

And I agree with Hasdrubal that digitising the details without getting into GIS/query/data model issues for smaller areas is a cleaner and quicker option.

#10
Charles Syrett

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Anu, I practically never take GIS data as-is and then style it. I usually use it just like any other source (scanned maps, screen shots, etc.) -- import it, scale it, and then use it as a source to create my own drawing. This approach bypasses so many of the time-consuming, bewildering, and even potentially legally problematic difficulties that arise when you try to shanghai some dataset, disentangle the attributes, dress it up, and call it a map. (There, that felt good. There are, of course, some datasets that are reliable and free to use as-is, but they're pretty rare.)

As for the Yellowknife project, I just used free Canadian federal topo data to create a control layer (for scaling) and then created screen shots from the city's own (excellent) mapping engine. The rest is just drawing (er, excuse me, "digitizing"). Fast, easy, enjoyable, no legal encumbrances. B)

Oh -- and the job is done now. Commercial clients rarely have time for us cartos to hunt around for datasets or do convoluted programming. :rolleyes:

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I use OSM frequently, usually by downloading from CloudMade and then loading into Global Mapper. There we project it and do selective shapefile exports trimmed to the window view. Then it's over to the Mac, using our trusty rusty MAPublisher for FreeHand. This works well for most areas, but for some areas (e.g., right now, where we've got a project in Yellowknife NWT, Canada), the data is far from complete. Sometimes Google is better, sometimes OSM is better, but you always have to research, and you always have to update, and you always have to edit (= the fun of mapmaking). B)

You are very right, sometimes Google is better, sometimes OSM. But OSM says, you can always use their data but Google is a strict no, what to do.

Now for your Yellowknofe project, will you digitise the whole lot from Google Map?

Just for curiosity sake, which area in Yellowknife are you interested? If you can give me the bounding corners of the AOI, may be I can find some data for you.

Anu
http://www.mapsandlocations.com



#11
ProMapper

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Anu, I practically never take GIS data as-is and then style it. I usually use it just like any other source (scanned maps, screen shots, etc.) -- import it, scale it, and then use it as a source to create my own drawing. This approach bypasses so many of the time-consuming, bewildering, and even potentially legally problematic difficulties that arise when you try to shanghai some dataset, disentangle the attributes, dress it up, and call it a map.

Wow!! well said. And great use of the word shanghai.

#12
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E.g. there's about 70 streets in the country classified as "residental". One as "zandpad" (dirt road, but if you don't know Dutch you'd never find out, so that's not making it very "open"). At least one is called "geen naam" (Dutch for "no name", once again, if you don't know Dutch you'll never find out).


That could make for a funny map, using those classes as street name labels on the map...

By the way - does the license for OSM let you resell the data with value-added services? Maybe it could be a business opportunity to sell cleaned-up data and services. (and feed back up to the mothership?)
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#13
amtait

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I set up my own FME process that can read big chuncks of data by cutting them up into smaller pieces and then sticking them back together again.


Hi Hans,

How successful has your FME process been? I, too, have just been playing around with the Cloudmade and Geofabrik OSM data and seen that it isn't close to complete. Can you briefly describe the FME process?

We have it here in the shop but I've not used it for complex processes, just simple translations. Are you starting from a full PLANET XML dump?

__Alex
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#14
Hans van der Maarel

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How successful has your FME process been? I, too, have just been playing around with the Cloudmade and Geofabrik OSM data and seen that it isn't close to complete. Can you briefly describe the FME process?

We have it here in the shop but I've not used it for complex processes, just simple translations. Are you starting from a full PLANET XML dump?


You specify the bounding box coordinates that you want to have it download. Since downloading data through the XAPI is limited to a certain number of features, my FME process takes those coordinates and cuts up the area into smaller chunks, which are being downloaded one at a time.

Once everything is downloaded it's combined and duplicate objects are resolved (the standard XAPI download will not clip objects, so you'll end up with duplicates), the result is then written to a shapefile with a more complete datamodel than what Cloudmade and Geofabrik offer. Quite frankly that data model is the main reason why I set this up.

It's not a fast process, downloading the data takes a long time, but it's one of those "fire and forget" things.

I haven't dared looking at a planet.osm dump yet. First of all downloading 11 Gb over my home dsl connection will take a *long* time and then it unzips to a 171 Gb monster. I guess that could be loaded into a spatial database but that process will then take quite some time as well. Once that's done, you could stick with the daily diff's. It'd be worth it if you have the infrastructure in place (dedicated computer to hold the data and database, fast download connection), but at the moment I don't.
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