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Just got my printed map, need help

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#16
Clark Geomatics

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I understand your frustration with the print job - especially with the fact you weren't able to be there for the press check. I've only had one map printed on synthetic, but it took three attempts and two different print companies to get it right. Have you paid the printer yet? You may have some recourse here to work out an amicable solution. I'm not sure about the American legal system, but there is probably something in place that can protect you to some extent in a case like this. I had to negotiate (quite firmly) with the printer because the first mis-print was so bad that, under Canadian retail law, the map didn't fit with its "intended purpose" (in my case, the printer used the wrong inks and they weren't as durable as they should have been). I returned the maps and withheld payment. They refused to reprint on their dime so I went elsewhere and everything went smoothly. Clearly the proof doesn't match the final map - you have a case here, don't let them get away with this sub-standard job - word of mouth goes a long way on CartoTalk (you might want to mention that to them).

I hope you were able to re-assess why you use this forum.
Cheers,

Jeff Clark
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www.clarkgeomatics.ca

#17
Michael Karpovage

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Jeff,

Very well put as to the recourse Beaver could take. That seems like a really good firm approach to raise the level of expectations and quality for all involved. Especially if he has that printer's proof to go by.

Regards,

Michael

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#18
BEAVER

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The map was not printed using silk screening. They use computer to plate to engrave aluminum printing plates that goes on the offset press. This is standard printing at most map printers.

The printing was done by Signature Printing in Canada. I even let them put on the front cover of the map with large text "Printed in Canada by Signature Printing Inc - www.mapprinters.com". I was hoping that if they put their name on the front cover they will try to do a really good job. Guess not. I will try them again one more time and then go elsewhere.

It's always a problem being a little guy. I print maybe 5000-8000 maps per year so they don't care. But my business is growing and I plan on making many more maps in the future.

#19
canvas101

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The map was not printed using silk screening. They use computer to plate to engrave aluminum printing plates that goes on the offset press. This is standard printing at most map printers.

The printing was done by Signature Printing in Canada. I even let them put on the front cover of the map with large text "Printed in Canada by Signature Printing Inc - www.mapprinters.com". I was hoping that if they put their name on the front cover they will try to do a really good job. Guess not. I will try them again one more time and then go elsewhere.

It's always a problem being a little guy. I print maybe 5000-8000 maps per year so they don't care. But my business is growing and I plan on making many more maps in the future.


Hello Beaver,

Your comment leads me to believe you do not understand how screening affects your print job. It sounds like you are under the impression that you drop off an EPS file and the printer outputs to an imagesetter or DTP and your done. That mindset is wrong. That’s why most companies have a print representative that understands the industry and matches all of the elements that ensure the final output is what the client intended. Having a better understanding of screening and how it could improve your print job is invaluable. For example when I print projects similar to yours I choose a specialty screening method that easily allows me to register a 0.1pt line using CMYK. You wanted some advice, investigate screening. In regards to "Silk Screening" that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Regards

#20
Dennis McClendon

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How did you deliver the files? Did you not specify overprinting for the spot color? Did you print laser seps to make sure the fifth color was overprinting?
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
chicagocarto.com

#21
Paul H

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1) Hey, lay off the Beav.

2) I don't think screening has anything to do with this problem. The contours are not screened. It's a matter of not overprinting the 5th color.

3) Signature Printing does quality work. I've never had a problem with them.

4) "Printed in Canada" is required for all printing (done in Canada, naturally) that ends up being a retail product.

5) Although the problem with the contours probably bugs BEAVER to no end, overall the map is beautiful and I think map users won't even notice.

Wally

#22
BEAVER

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I just got the full shipment of the maps. I had only two copies that they overnighted to me fresh of the press. Now that I have all of them I can tell that plates were setup correctly and the maps look almost perfect when they started to print. Then as you open more boxes the white lines stating to show more and more. The two maps that they grabbed and sent to me must have been the very few last maps off the press and they are the worst looking. I'll hand those out as freebies for promotional purposes.

Paul. I didn't know that Jimapco printed maps in Canada.

#23
canvas101

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1) Hey, lay off the Beav.

2) I don't think screening has anything to do with this problem. The contours are not screened. It's a matter of not overprinting the 5th color.

3) Signature Printing does quality work. I've never had a problem with them.

4) "Printed in Canada" is required for all printing (done in Canada, naturally) that ends up being a retail product.

5) Although the problem with the contours probably bugs BEAVER to no end, overall the map is beautiful and I think map users won't even notice.

Wally


Hello Paul and All,

I have attached a link that if you take the time to read you may learn why screening is important. Using newer types of screening will allow for much tighter registration and will be far more forgiving on press. I once thought the only way to get a good set of contours on a map was to add a spot color. Not the case anymore, use the correct screening method and registration of CMYK is a whole lot cleaner. I’m sorry Paul if you do not see this as helpful but if I was in the Beavers’ position I would accept all input. I thought that was the point of this forum.

http://www.bsink.com...icScreening.pdf

Regards

#24
Michael Karpovage

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Beaver, I'm glad your job turned out as acceptable in the end! I know EXACTLY how you feel when you receive as samples (fresh off the press) or you open the first box of a newly delivered shipment of tens of thousands of printed pieces and the very first ones you look at are the crappiest ones in the bunch! It makes your stomach turn thinking that's how the whole job looks. I've had printers come to my place of business and go through every single box and thousands of pieces to extract the bad ones. You got it right when you described how the plates moved ever so slightly during the course of the print run. That's the pressman's job to monitor that and he should have pulled those bad ones off the press and never included them before going to the bindery department. As is the case, and this does happen frequently in the printing industry, a pressman cannot catch ALL of the bad ones and a few may slip in here or there. Unfortunately, those are the ones you saw. So, I'm glad it was just a simple case of this oversight and not some major technicality on how the piece was prepared or the printing technique involved.

Regards,

Michael

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Michael Karpovage

• Savannah Historic District Illustrated Map
www.karpovagecreative.com/savannah

• Account Manager/Illustrator
Mapformation, LLC - Atlanta, GA office
www.mapformation.com

• Author of Map of Thieves
www.mapofthieves.com


#25
Paul H

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Although stochastic screening might allow a tighter registration on this map, the trade off would be less intense color to the contour lines and labels, less sharpness to the contour lines, the chance of a "banding" effect in any areas of flat color, and a greater chance of dot gain (could muddy areas of shaded relief).

I believe the best way to produce this map would be to use a 5th color, as BEAVER did, but also to have the 5th color overprint the CMYK.

That's just my advice.

#26
Dennis McClendon

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I agree. Beaver should have specified overprinting, but in case he didn't know to do that, anyone at the printing plant who saw 0.4 pt contour lines knocking out of the CMYK plates should have immediately stopped and called the client to check. Even if no one else ever looked at seps, the pressman knew very well that he couldn't hold it.

In the new digital world, this kind of thing comes up a couple times a week at a print shop, and knockouts for dark-colored fine lines, no matter what they mean, are almost never what the client intended.
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
chicagocarto.com

#27
Boyd

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Beaver should have specified overprinting, but in case he didn't know to do that, anyone at the printing plant who saw 0.4 pt contour lines knocking out of the CMYK plates should have immediately stopped and called the client to check. Even if no one else ever looked at seps, the pressman knew very well that he couldn't hold it.

In the new digital world, this kind of thing comes up a couple times a week at a print shop, and knockouts for dark-colored fine lines, no matter what they mean, are almost never what the client intended.


I agree. I think what was envisioned here were overprinted contours. The only way to get the desired super-fine detail is to overprint as one color. But prepress missed it and that's a blackhole of finger pointing.

We have a one-color press on which we print process color. It's been a journey but what I've learned can be applied to any printer: keep the ink mixes as simple as possible and trap/overprint as much as you can. Printing is then so much easier and your pressman can play donkey kong while your map prints.

Your map looks cool and I'm sure users will very much appreciate it. Regardless of printing, you're providing crucial information. That's the real issue.

#28
BEAVER

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I got to the seventh box and all the maps have topo lines printed really faint. I just started to laugh. Just how many things can go wrong with a print job. I was OK with having one side of the map with darker richer colors than the other side, but now I have some maps with dark brown topo lines and some with light orange topo lines. I kept opening more boxes and found over third of the job that way. All other colors look the same on all maps. The spot color was PMS 471 which is Cyan 0%, Magenta 59%, Yellow 100%, Black 18% and it's a standard color for topo lines.

http://www.pdcarto.c...l/CMYKOMaps.htm

Here are the images showing two maps, the one with bright lines laying on top of the dark line map. I will contact the Signature Printing and try to get them to reprint. Again, Am I being too picky?

Posted Image

Posted Image

#29
Paul H

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That's a significant difference. I think you have justification to ask for a reprint.




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