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#16
David Medeiros

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True.
Well, this is something that I (everyone) should do if the line-work sucks.
I'm guessing that cartographers who have a background in graphic design would automatically redraw all line-work...while those with a background in GIS would accept the lines as is, for whatever reason (perceived accuracy, etc). I redraw boundary lines on smaller maps, but rarely on a large one.


Cartographers with a background in cartography will probably redraw the shore lines as well. ;)

It's not really about completely re digitizing anyway, a lot of what makes illy so powerful as a map design tool is how it handles lines for you and there's a lot you can do to improve the look of an Arc imported map with out actually redrawing.

Leaving lines raw for accuracies sake is, in many cases, pointless (especially for road or water features). The scale of the map will determine the degree to which you can safely generalize without affecting the users experience in terms of accurate reading. In most cases, even at large scales the raw line work is being printed or displayed way above that threshold where small changes in appearance actually change the data location beyond already existing error margins.

Not to mention the fact that data came out of a GIS is in no way a guarantee of its accuracy. There can be a lot of slop in the way this data is created.

My current work flow looks roughly like this:

1) Use map publisher to directly import base shape files for map layout (nation/state borders, continents, shorelines, roads, hydro, point featres etc.)
2) Create shaded relief in Natural Scene Designer; process through Photo Shop; import directly into illy via MAPub
3) Use MAPub selection tools to parse raw GIS data into usable groups and new layers (eg separate mass tangle of hydro linework into groups of rivers and streams by stream order, or stream flow, or name etc. or use MAPub to select desired road system info, and join on name or feature classification etc.)
4) organize layers and features into logical hierarchy and start applying spec changes to create the finished map.

There's a lot of little unwritten steps in there of course but that's the general work flow. 99% of the time I can get away with using just MAPub to do all of the GIS work, it's really more than just an importer and can handle some heavy lifting in terms of parsing data. I go to my work Arc software to do the few things MAPub can't do, or I don't know how to do (like clipping).

GIS Reference and Instruction Specialist, Stanford Geospatial Center.

 

www.mapbliss.com

 


#17
Dennis McClendon

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The redrawing of GIS linework is a very sore subject with me today, having spent hundreds of hours at it over the last few weeks and up until 2 this morning working on freeway ramps and the like. This was a multi-county bike map at 1:100,000 for the Chicago area, and the data came from a dozen or more sources. Each county digitized things differently, and I had to use parks and water from other sources. So the water edges never lined up with the park edges, in part because the shoreline is different on different days. The parks data carefully excluded rights of way for streets, railroads, and electric transmission lines, so most of those had to be redrawn or touched up. Most bizarre of all, the parks data would exclude small internal ponds and lakes, so I had to get rid of all those. Railroads and freeways are always complete crap in GIS data, so I count on having to redraw those with Bezier curves. At 1:100,000, I want rivers to be sinuous curves with a uniform line weight, not a collection of scruffy-looking shorelines, so those had to be redrawn. The freeway ramps in one county were broken into tiny short segments, so there was no easy way to bring them together and simplify them. Some of the counties included 200 feet of adjacent counties, so there were double streets along all the county lines. Frontage roads had to be displaced, and then any surface streets connected to frontage roads had to be moved as well. And on and on. How could anyone ever make a publication-quality map without hundreds of hours of tedious redrawing?

Thank goodness I'm back in the land of crisp clean FreeHand lines today, where a rectangular park is described by four points, not 262.
Dennis McClendon, Chicago CartoGraphics
chicagocarto.com

#18
David Medeiros

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...And on and on. How could anyone ever make a publication-quality map without hundreds of hours of tedious redrawing?


lol, oh so familiar :D I freeze up sometimes looking at all the clean up work that GIS data can create for me.

I've been lucky enough on the freelance side of things to be able to usually work with sources that at least line up well enough to not need complete re digitizing. Joining and simplifying with small tweaks here and there have been sufficient. One thing I will say is that when I look at similar map designs in my portfolio I can clearly see the difference between the hand digitized maps and the "cleaned" up GIS maps, they look great but you just don't get the same smooth feel no matter how much you simplify in illy. On the municipal side of things... (sigh) what can I say,they have much lower standards than I or any of my other clients do and my attempts to change that have so far been met with incomprehension. I give them better than raw but it's hardly publication quality.

When you want or need a certain level of generalization without losing accuracy you have to do it by hand I guess. All I can say is thank god (or whoever) for labeling functions, even with clean up it's WAY faster than doing it manually in illy. To those of you who have worked with mylar and film I apologize for even complaining about map labeling ;)

GIS Reference and Instruction Specialist, Stanford Geospatial Center.

 

www.mapbliss.com

 


#19
oldtoby

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To those of you who have worked with mylar and film I apologize for even complaining about map labeling ;)



I never have but my boss likes to bring it up on a daily basis (usually when claiming that its faster than placing text on screen) :D

#20
Charles Syrett

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All I can say is thank god (or whoever) for labeling functions, even with clean up it's WAY faster than doing it manually in illy. To those of you who have worked with mylar and film I apologize for even complaining about map labeling ;)


Apology accepted! :) Actually, what really irked me when I moved to digital in the mid-90s was that I had to type for the first time. For years, I had simply handwritten the names I needed onto a piece of paper (remember paper?) along with specs ("Helvetica Bold Italic 6 pt, letterspace 2") and sent it to the typesetter, asking for a negative as well as 2 or 3 copies on waxed stripping film. Imagine my exhilaration when GIS started to become useful for carto production -- once again, no typing needed! YAAAY!

Oldtoby -- maybe what your boss is referring to is that interim period, where names had to be typed. But wait -- no, it still doesn't make sense, because handwriting the names for a typesetter takes even longer (for most people). Maybe you could get him/her to explain....I'm a little curious now...

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com

#21
oldtoby

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All I can say is thank god (or whoever) for labeling functions, even with clean up it's WAY faster than doing it manually in illy. To those of you who have worked with mylar and film I apologize for even complaining about map labeling ;)


Apology accepted! :) Actually, what really irked me when I moved to digital in the mid-90s was that I had to type for the first time. For years, I had simply handwritten the names I needed onto a piece of paper (remember paper?) along with specs ("Helvetica Bold Italic 6 pt, letterspace 2") and sent it to the typesetter, asking for a negative as well as 2 or 3 copies on waxed stripping film. Imagine my exhilaration when GIS started to become useful for carto production -- once again, no typing needed! YAAAY!

Oldtoby -- maybe what your boss is referring to is that interim period, where names had to be typed. But wait -- no, it still doesn't make sense, because handwriting the names for a typesetter takes even longer (for most people). Maybe you could get him/her to explain....I'm a little curious now...

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com



No, hes refering to physical type placement using clear film tape of the labels and a razor blade, such as would have been done 30+ years ago, pre computers. He claims he would have to place 1500-2000 pieces of type in that manner in a day.

Incidentally, we don't do text placement in ARCGIS, even Maplex doesnt give us the desired results for the type size and map scale we use. Our workflow right now is to use the Arctools command line program to generate .ai files which I then import into Freehand and then place the text there. (i average 500-600 labels a day)

#22
David Medeiros

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No, hes refering to physical type placement using clear film tape of the labels and a razor blade, such as would have been done 30+ years ago, pre computers. He claims he would have to place 1500-2000 pieces of type in that manner in a day.


At 1500 labels in an 8 hour day he'd have to hit 187 labels an hour or 3.125 a minute, including cutting the label out and properly affixing it. I'd have to consult with the manual cartographers from my old department but I don't believe it. All I know is revision time on our maps at CSAA was cut down considerably between manual and digital cartography.

I'm sure he can't beat you if he plays by the rules and curves the type to fit the lines... cutting the peices of film into individual letters and reassembling into an evenly spaced, smoothly curved labels where appropriate.

GIS Reference and Instruction Specialist, Stanford Geospatial Center.

 

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#23
oldtoby

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Oh ya, I may have never done it that way myself but I know he is exagurating when he says he did. :lol:

#24
Charles Syrett

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Oh ya, I may have never done it that way myself but I know he is exagurating when he says he did. :lol:


Certain kinds of type placement can, in fact, be done very quickly. But definitely not dense city street maps (think tightly curving subdivision streets at small scale) or maps requiring a lot of winding river names. All of which begs the question: what kind of mapping was your boss doing?

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com

#25
oldtoby

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dense city street maps (think tightly curving subdivision streets at small scale) or maps requiring a lot of winding river names.


was exactly what he was doing. :lol: (and what I am doing for him now)

#26
Charles Syrett

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was exactly what he was doing. :lol: (and what I am doing for him now)


Well, now it's getting really interesting. Sample, please! And tell us what the map scale is. :)

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com

#27
oldtoby

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Well, now it's getting really interesting. Sample, please! And tell us what the map scale is. :)



Well, its been 30+ years since he actually did the work, so i've never seen any of his maps, probably not oo many out there to find. Based on his comments he was doing maps at a similar scale and size as what I do now at his company. ~1:39,000 scale maps of US countys, showing all streets/street names as well as lots of points of interest.

#28
Charles Syrett

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Well, its been 30+ years since he actually did the work, so i've never seen any of his maps, probably not oo many out there to find. Based on his comments he was doing maps at a similar scale and size as what I do now at his company. ~1:39,000 scale maps of US countys, showing all streets/street names as well as lots of points of interest.


OK, is it possible for you to post a sample of the current product, then? I'd love to see these dense curvy streets at 1: 39,000 -- every one of them named! :) (Actually this kind of "industrial" stuff is much more interesting to me than fancy antique style maps etc., though I enjoy those too.)

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com

#29
oldtoby

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well heres a section of Orlando FL that I did last year. Its not the worst area, there is another spot that was about the same density of streets but the majority were small curvy subdivision streets, but you get the idea. Fonts are no smaller than 4 pt, most are in the 4.5-5 pt range.

Attached Files



#30
Charles Syrett

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Yup, that's pretty dense! I like the use of the coloured bullets in the lists, but I've never been a fan of halos around names. Curious -- what's the work flow? Surely you didn't have to type all these names. :rolleyes:

Charles Syrett
Map Graphics
http://www.mapgraphics.com




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